No offense, Jeff, but a bit upthread you mentioned the concept of God choosing what kinds of evil he allows I find that deeply troubling. Michael Horton, a Calvinist, did the forward to the book. Could the person have simply avoided it and gone to someplace else without even making the comment? The theology is weak. Any small error can lead us on to some very large mistakes if we arent careful. @JohnPiper: Then Job arose and tore his robe and shaved his head and fell on the ground and worshiped.Job 1:20. I witnessed a weird detachment with this thinking, and people almost having to downplay love or relationship with others. I am much more hyper in my comments than they are. The 10 Best Non Calvinist Systematic Theology of 2022 Before making a purchase decision, we strongly recommend reading through the features of each Non Calvinist Systematic Theology and picking one that will work best for you. What content does your faith have? of one. Ben Witherington III 24. He, as I said previously, shows quotes by Calvinists during the video. Glad to have someone who gets my background! Off topic but growing up and even today my enduring friendships are with folks who had at least one immigrant parent.. one each from Greece, Italy and Albania. Of late it has been a struggle not yo become angry at some YRR who belittle my longtime walk with the Lord because I am not a Calvinist. (I mean, Star Trek?). But in doing so, I fear that people who might get a lot of benefit from Calvinism might be rejecting it for the wrong reasons. Thanks for taking my comment in the way I intended. This is such a profound conversation and so close to my heart! Im glad I know that now. In fact, I doubt any of the Cavlinistas would even agree with that thought process. Roger E. Olson (born 1952) is Professor of Theology, George W. Truett Theological Seminary, Baylor University, Waco, Texas, USA. He is also an ordained Baptist minister. I think the biblical examples might sometimes be God working with someones sin; for example, the hardening of Pharaohs heart, and that might still be happening today in some cases, and not always involving sin, such as God giving us the words as we witness to someone.) Where we end, he begins. @ Julie Anne: Hence, your free will is categorically subject to Gods absolute control (meaning, God allowing is functionally the exact same thing as Him not allowing; anything that happens happens as a direct function of his will, either via that positive (allowing) or the negative (not allowing)in either case, your free will is utterly under Gods sovereign control. Change). I may post a little bit of my testimony and how I came to by position of being a non calvinist but for now just wanted to say thanks for this post and for all that you 2 do and for Wade as well and e-church! * Okay, end of sermon. Also, I use calvinist interchangeably with TULIP believer. There are some statements Ive thought were wrong that weve let go through, because we think sometimes it is better to give a voice than stifle a hurting person because she doesnt get every last thing correct. He was the leading French Protestant reformer and the most important figure in the second generation of the Protestant Reformation. Do you share these thoughts? His notable works, such as The Courage to Be and the three-volume Systematic Theology, has inspired intellectual thinkers and commoners alike. They think they are helping and by knowing what they believe about Calvinism, it will be of comfort to them. @ JeffB: I even like some mean Calvinists. Loving hurting people in real ways (listening/caring/supporting) can help SAVE lives, emotionally, spiritually, and even physically. I guess there will always be that tension there. And any idea that causes people existential damage is wrong. Here is my point as a non-theology major. Whatever power is exhibited in this world is not due to an independent machine with its own source of power and energy. Hes describing man, not God. But I could not have thrown it were it not for my moment-by-moment dependence on the being and power of God. Was your family Christian? Calvinism may be cool right now, but it doesnt reflect the God I have known and loved for over 40 years. Witherington and Lenski are not Calvinists, but they're not Arminians, either. I believe that I am endowed by my Creator with the power to put an end to the vast majority of human misery and suffering in this life It begins with me as a single drop in a vast ocean. Did you see my comment in the post about a nice Calvinist? Almost all theists (Calvinists, Arminian, other) agree that God could have- so why didnt he? I think many. I just want an equal seat at the table. Good to be reminded we are not at war with fellow believers and its never wrong to be kind. There are few things harder to deal with than love that is condescending and devoid of respect. Good post Dee (If Im allowed to comment on this one!). Im talking about TULIP. 9. The crazy cycle can lead to suicide or walking away from God entirely. So, I disagree with your choice of word infantilised because in my example Im talking about giving someone hurting exactly what they need (emotionally/spiritually) at the precise time they need it just like breastmilk. They equate Calvinism as spiritually intellectual stuff and non-Calvinist theology as far below reformed doctrine. What DOES bother me is when people reject something on the basis of misinformation. LOLGod works in mysterious and wonderful ways! What about what God foreordained someone else to say that is different. As Ive said, Id prefer not to discuss Calvinism at all. My experience with this cult gave me a starting point to question my need for God in my life and showed me how to trust God rather than blindly follow a man-led cult. I dont want to convince anyone of a certain brand of Christianity. First of all we have to understand that what is affirmed- that God ordains whatsoever comes to pass from all eternity- is not unique to Reformed theology. The assuredness of the approach is arrogant. There are lot of things that I dont see how it fits. They may, and most probably do, differ on other areas of theology but at least in soteriology, they do not hold to what is commonly known as the Doctrines of Grace or TULIP. I dont want to convince anyone of a certain brand of Christianity. We didn't worry so much about exacting doctrine. We may diverge a bit here. I hope that alone will entice some to read it. Notice the implicit point: only THEY really bring glory to God. They want pure milk easy to digest, soothing, warms their tummy, meets their needs, gives comfort, nourishes them and helps them grow. This never seemed hard to understand to me. I am neither. Energy is really transferred from one thing to another. I dont experience this extreme attitude from you at all. Brings to mind the documentary This Emotional Life I saw on PBS. I believe in Penal Substitutionary Atonement. Often, along with inviting non-Calvinists to just "read the Bible," Calvinists like to type out longs lists of Bible quotes which the Calvinists thinks proves and defends the Calvinistic system of theology. Jeff Swith respect, I have never asked anyone to shut up. You should see another Christian blog where the wars are almost as bad (hatred-wise) as the different Muslim sects slaughtering each other in Iraq & Syria. I am currently reading Roger Olson's book, Against Calvinism. I am going to quote liberally from Sprouls book Truths We Confess, Vol 1 about this section of WCF. LL.B (Hons) London, CLP. Glad youre mentioning Roger Olson, Dee. But there are reasons not to make it an issue. Weve all been taught by people with various frameworks- that isnt bad. I don't get him and he doesn't get me but we can still try to love and respect one another. Im very glad that I can call you a sister in our Lord and a friend.. Mohler is either clueless or his inflated view of self distorts what he has done to the Southern Baptist Convention. This is the place where all the puzzle pieces do not fit for me, and I am OK with that. @ Nick Bulbeck: Hmm not sure I agree, but if were OK on the Apostles and Nicene Creeds, alls well! We are. Learning as we go, making mistakes but so what, & learning from them. All the water in the glass was tainted with a bit of black dye, but it was not pure black and saturated with the dye. Bad theology dishonors God and hurts people. considering you are being so charitable and I called Calvinism a horrible doctrine. F.B. IMO he has helped destroy the Southern Baptist Convention, but no one dare tell him this. Does it say milk of the word? That sounds contradictory to the importance that many place on the word. I will say they are much more composed personalities. Argo. Of course you are. I got a taste of this by spending a couple of years in Ed Young Jr.'s church. My dad was Russian Orthodox, primarily because it was a cultural expectation for him. A A Arminianism refers to a belief structure ascribed to Jacobus Arminius (1560-1609), a Dutch Christian theologian who studied the tenants of Calvinism. I DO know of Calvinists who stay away from these blogs excuse they feel they are unwelcome, even though they very much wish to fight against abuse. The non Christian world will know there is a God by our love for other Christians. Some of his hearers might have been scared as, uh, heck. And it wouldnt matter to me if what the person said was true or not. Arminianism answers some of questions for me, not all of them. Thats why. This is close to or maybe is fatalism, the idea that man has no free will. I wish we didnt even have to talk about it. I believe that Calvin and, more importantly, Scripture says that nothing we think, say, or do comes as a surprise to God. We wouldnt be having any of these conversations if that doctrine was being labeled as hyper-Calinvism, which is what it has been called in the past. The Calvinist thought process is: God has foreordained every word I say, therefore, I cannot be wrong. If I am doing good by sowing good wheat kernels and not tares, why would the Almighty want to stop me? which is really funny because in my experience, the Lutheran church never ever mentions either of those things. I sure love the practical side of things. Buuuuuut the problem with this is that trying to pin a Calvinist down on what doctrines they actually believe is like trying to hold a wriggling cat using hands stuck in oven mitts (not that wed be putting the cat in the overgross, and, uh, cruel). Toward that end, here are five Baptist theologians from the past I commend as must reading for every Baptist pastor. Actually Ive always thought of the hyper crowd in any area as the ones who want to get in your face and tell everyone how if they are not with them they are against them. Were doing well so We must be Righteous is Prosperity Gospel crap. I know that it started spontaneously on another thread, but you could have said enough.. 1 Systematic Theology Berkhof, Louis (Author) English (Publication Language) I may be wrong, but I get the feeling that you dont want Calvinists to be completely honest about what they believe in the current discussion, because someone may be hurt. Green 27. This soteriological view is named after him because he is best remembered for his plethora of writings on this theological subject. But I really, truly want to be done with the Paul! whats wrong with mess anyway? Wow-at least you got the Christian part. Calvinism stopped making sense to me when I was grieving the loss of my son last year. I will say that as a fairly new Lutheran, I have REALLY been blessed by the attitude that as a woman, I am relating directly to Christ and am responsible for my own theology. Yet, somewhere after the third paragraph, this young, rudderless teen stopped reading, glanced over at Star Trek on the television, began to cry, whispered, I believe and crossed that final frontier from unbelief into belief. I ask that you likewise dont look down on me and others who hold this view of God. http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/09/taking-calvinism-too-far-rc-sproul-jrs-evil-creating-deity/, Having left my few years of Calvinism through a Lutheran rescue, I just pictured a bunch of Germans and Norwegians riding in on cavalry horses, flying a Lutheran rose and singing A Mighty Fortress Is Our God, @ Hester: Make that Ein Feste Burg is Unser Gott, Hester! @ Daisy: I became a Christian at the age of 17, having been raised in Salem, Massachusetts, in what was essentially a non Christian home. This is as it should be, imo. That is biblical. And what is an ocean but a multitude of single drops? Feels your pain with you. You can even put your feet up I dont mind! Everything. 2. their humanity is often put on a shelf in defense of a system of belief. Maybe I dont get out enough, but I cant remember the last time I heard or read a Calvinist leader saying these kinds of things, unless they were referring to someone like Brian McLaren. And thanks for your honest answers. But, nothey will say, you dont have to agree with me! CALVIN! Wasnt that we didnt know we had differences but we were Christians who were in it together. I think that this is the reason why, in some cases (not including anyone in the present discussion), that a robust discussion is not possible. If Ive erred here, please forgive me for speaking out of turn . But, within the week, I opened my Bible and read 1John1 and knew it was speaking about me. I am a new Methodist pastor, a woman who has a great deal of respect for people who love the Lord and are serious about their study. I sympathise with Jeff about all the tar spattered in his direction. This really frustrates me a lot. But even more enigmatic is how man, being inexorably morally corrupt compared to God is never in a position to even KNOW the difference, since KNOWING good from evil implies that man can actually, of himself, wholly apart from God, freely embrace by his WILL the TRUTH of what is good, or reject it. That has been my experience in dealing with Calvinists online, or lurking at their forums or blogs, yes. Calvinism did not start with John Calvin. I just hope and pray that you can see this. #7 Scott J, Jan 10, 2006 My theologys still up-in-the-air, and I dont care if it never comes down. But something has changed in the last number of years. I hear the person, Calvin, discussed more than Jesus. I hear the word gospel placed in front of all primary and secondary issues. God doesnt have internal conflicts, though sometimes the Bible portrays it this way to make a point. I dont think this one is part of. Again, this idea that humans had no will to act is not something that the WCF, RC Sproul, or any Calvinist I know believes. However, Jesus entered our dimension and exists now outside of our dimension. Breastmilk tested at 1 year postpartum is different than breastmilk at 6 months postpartum, etc. Neither is TULIP. If I were there when a Calvinist or any other professing believer (or atheist or whatever) told someone who was suffering or grieving something that was sure to make the person feel worse, I can practically guarantee that I would shut that person up and have words with him/her. Just an observation. Now.as to the flavor of Christian, Ill probably have you explain, if you mention something Im not familiar with or dont understand. But these things do not happen independently of God. Tell himhow much you love the Lord and live outyour Christianlife. c) I want to move conversations about abuse beyond the Calvinism discussion because I think its a massive red herring. The accurate view of TD can be found in the chart that I linked to in my reply to dee. Or to say it differently, I loosely hold to the idea that God is in control of every molecule. The list consists of 89 members. We have to balance very carefully allowing some women to blow off steam vs being vitriolic in their hatred of all things male. Since I have never read Instititues, I cant be more specific. I think the way to achieve this is to leave Calvin/theology out entirely and instead actively love/listen/show compassion. Could we continue this discussion under the more recent Calvinist post, For Calvinists? . . It was so strong that I knew I had to write what was going on inside of me in connection with my childhood abuse. I am not the smartest person in the world and I know that what seems logical to me can, in fact, be wrong . These include Park Street Church in Boston with Paul Toms as pastor; Chapel Hill Bible Church in North Carolina with Jim Abrahamson as pastor and Bent Tree Bible Fellowship in Dallas with Pete Briscoe as pastor. LOLI am much more hyper in my comments than they are. Many of us had grown up in non-Christian households and did not know many Christians. So if you disagree with me, you must be doomed to hell as a heretic, since you contradict what God has put in my mind to say.. In spite of the current emphasis on Neo-Calvinism, it is still a minority position. Im sure there are believers in every venue. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); Enter your email address to follow this blog and receive notifications of new posts by email. I dont know why I didnt think of this earlier. Look at my Perfect System! Ive seen the attitude too often in fandom, and for some reason political or theological fanboys are a lot more respectable than furry or otaku or gamer fanboys, though the underlying dynamic is similar.

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