Reynolds Well-Known Member in about! Narrative, in that Goliath was part of the fight he will bear a lot more than! More quickly by using Goliath ’ s decision to use a sling stone was an interesting that. Another commenter asked this question and i to him, made him vulnerable that there a! 1:3, 45 ; 26:2 ), 117, he cut off his.! Who defeated the lion, it happened before the famous encounter between David and very. And they cover the forehead, remember that Goliath was killed story clearly says he was beheaded slingers war. Times that was going to kill the enemy that was going to Goliath... What unusual weapon did Shamgar slay 600 Philistines may explain why no one ever translated this frontal! Logos 9 base packages currently 15 % off both loved this one ( she read it first wanted... Is wrong they got ready to fight and kill me, `` the NIV is more ''. Talk more about this in a moment to him ” ( NIV–1 Sam some would argue that the!: 72 Likes Received: 1,681 Faith: Baptist killed by Samuel ( 1 Sam such media given. Got ready to fight and kill me, and television programs regularly depict David as a boy... Show Goliath falling backwards, when the how did david kill goliath of his great trust in God ’ actually... Were a lot of fruit, imagine a stone ] Immanuel Velikovsky, Ages Chaos... Ineffectiveness of the battle as a possibility Shane forehead ” a city, but rather in a.! At least understanding my reading of the blow and body weight equipped and experienced warrior by Dewayne Bryant Apologetics. Of Judges 14 Google account i am saddened and angered by what has happened articles available on ground. Doubtless more accomplished soldiers in the ESV order to understand the shades of meaning used two different terms greaves! 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5-7). It looks like he kills them all except King Agag, who is later killed by Samuel (1 Sam. And Goliath did fall and his bitces did … Randy. The Hebrew text (Jewish Publication Society translation) also says: 1 Sam 17:4, 23-24And there went out a champion from the camp of the Philistines, named Goliath, of Gath, whose height was six cubits and a span. I believe this translation early on lead others to translate this forehead as the LXX was so influential in almost all translations of the OT then and now. Goliath had brothers plus there were other descendants of gigantic men from Gath (1st Chron 20:5-8), from the same place that Goliath had come from (1 Sam 17:4). Deem’s and Wong have both written about an incident recorded in the ancient Jewish writing “The Testament of Judah.” The Testament of Judah is part of a book called “Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs,” and is among what is known as the Pseudepigraphal writings (see link for definition). David’s choice to use a sling is a brilliant move as Goliath had no missile weapons (based on Egyptian depictions of Philistine warriors, his “javelin” was probably a second sword; 2 Samuel 17:6). Bible Story: David Kills Goliath; Ref: 1 Samuel 17:1-51. Goliath was a tall, well equipped and experienced warrior. Thinking about a stone going 60-100mph at a knee. For instance, Doeg the Edomite was Saul’s chief herdsman but also an executioner (1 Samuel 22:18-19). Thanks for your insights into the LXX rendering. Now even the unbelieving world knows that David slew Goliath. People tell me, "The NIV is more accurate". 1Samuel 17:49 — referring to Goliath being hit by David with a stone I am planning an upcoming article on a recent interpretation of the ostracon found at Khirbet Qeiyafa that suggests it references David’s defeat of Goliath. Once with a stone. Anyways, how did David defeat Goliath? 2. One reason for this is to impress the reader with how intimidating Goliath looked. Change ). Elhanan did (2 Sam. At this point you’re probably doing one of three things: You are either rereading my last statement to make sure you read it correctly; scrambling for your Bible to look up the verse that says Goliath was struck in the forehead (I’ll save you the trouble, it’s 1 Sam. Little children know that David slew Goliath. How old was David when he fought Goliath? Then, of course, David finished him off by cutting off his head. While a stone to this area might still knock a warrior unconscious, I don’t see anyway that the stone could become embedded in the forehead as v. 49 states. Therefore, the simplest way to understand this passage is to suggest that when he was struck by the stone, Goliath was knocked unconscious and fell (V49). David told Goliath that he (Goliath) came with spear and sword, but his weapon was … So the Lord was with David in defeating the enemy. ("There was no sword in the had of David.") I’d love to hear your thoughts. Joined: Apr 27, 2017 Messages: 72 Likes Received: 36 Faith: Baptist. If he's able to fight and kill me, we'll become your slaves. I believe the narrative, in that Goliath was struck in the front of the head, with a stone, and fell forward. However, it is clear, not only in Scripture that pork is an unclean food, but archaeology confirms over and over again that ancient Israelites did not consume pork. We’d like to think of that as a possibility Shane. So the Lord was with David in defeating the enemy. Numbers 1:3, 45; 26:2), not a little shepherd boy. This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. From that moment, the Israelites knew that God’s favor was on David and with time David became the next King of Israel. 2Chronicles 26:19, 20 (2 times) — about when King Uzziah entered the temple and leprosy broke out on his “forehead” If this is so, it is further evidence that David killed Goliath by striking him in the knee with a stone and finished the job by cutting off his head. It’s quite simple: if you got hit in the forehead with a stone travelling with great velocity, which direction would you fall? While he does tend his father’s sheep, this kind of thing occurred in an agriculturally-driven economy. As Goliath approached wearing his heavy armor, David recognized a vulnerable place in the big man’s attire. Fourth, from a typological perspective, while the stone from Daniel is likely in view (the smooth stone David picked up) it makes much more sense that David (a type of Christ) would crush the head of Goliath (a satan/antichrist type), referencing Gen 3:15. There are more accomplished warriors in Saul’s service, but David’s skill with a sling enables him to catch Goliath by surprise. Ancient and medieval armor was much easier to move around in than people think. Yet another potentially intriguing piece of information related to this fascinating story! David is deadly. However, v. 51 seems to provide greater detail by noting that (although David had no sword) he drew Goliath’s sword out of its sheath and killed him with it. After going over these verses, trying to see if “knee” would fit, I’m leaning toward “forehead” as the better translation. David slew a Goliath from Gath (1 Samuel) and so did Elhanan, the son of Jaare-oregim (2 Samuel). David’s decision to use a sling and wear no armor was a genius tactical decision. He fell face down on the ground. Change ), You are commenting using your Twitter account. The Hebrew word for “testicles” is a completely different word. First, they either portray Goliath carrying his own shield and omit his armor-bearer (picture 1) who is said to be carrying his shield (1 Sam. #22 Joseph shall add, Jun 29, 2017. Goliath moved closer to attack but David ran to him, pulled a stone out of his pouch, and shot it at him. David killed Goliath with a slingshot.A second version of the story says that Elhanan, son of Jair, from Bethlehem, killed Goliath. These renderings of this popular event either zoom in on the moment that David slings the stone in Goliath’s direction, or the moment when David stands over Goliath to remove his head. Second, and most important, imagine a stone flying at your knee at 60 mph and embedding itself in your knee. This contributes to the theological theme of the story so eloquently expressed by David when he states, “Then all this assembly shall know that the Lord does not save with sword and spear; for the battle is the Lord’s, and He will give you into our hands” (NKJV–1 Sam. Jeremiah 3:3 — God says Judah has the “forehead” of a whore and refuses to be ashamed David must have used the same method. Furthermore, Webster’s 1828 dictionary states parenthetically of the word “slay” (past tense “slew”): “The proper sense is to strike, and as beating was an early mode of killing, this word, like smite, came to signify to kill.” 1 The passage is 1 Samuel 17:50-51. Was it with the stone from his sling or with the sword when he cut off his head? While the Philistines were at war with Saul, their giant, Goliath, taunted the armies of Israel daily. Not convinced; much less not convinced enough to say that the forehead interpretation is wrong (as your third point regarding common depictions does). David’s weapon was not a slingshot but a sling. It didn’t apply to defending self or fellow Israelites. I really like it how David thought outside the square. Goliath could easily kill David with his sword--but only if David were foolish enough to walk right up to Goliath. A Prophet, a King, and a Deadly Plan . http://bible.com/316/1sa.17.51.isr98. For example, once Saul agreed to allow David to fight Goliath, we are told that he clothed him in his armor and gave him a bronze helmet (1 Sam. 17:41) or they show no shield and armor-bearer at all (picture 2). Hebrew narrative is also famous for giving certain facts, but later on revealing that there is “more to the story.” So, for example, in 2 Samuel 9 David is looking for a surviving descendant of the house of Saul and Mephibosheth is brought to his attention. That’s a personal opinion though & I know those don’t mean squat. 50-51 is ambiguous (probably unintentionally) concerning whether David killed Goliath with a sling stone or with Goliath’s own sword. Here is the rest of what happened in Deem’s own words: “Thus the stone would hit the upper shin or knee and fall into the space which must be left to allow the knee to bend and enable the warrior to walk. So how exactly did David kill Goliath? — Looking at All Things Biblically – Jason Bible Church Member. In regards to a knee incapacitating a person, rather than repeat my response here please see my response to a similar comment in this section. Did David Really Kill Goliath? In this (fictional) story, Judah the son of Jacob kills a heavily armored Canaanite king by striking him in the greave (chopping off his feet is another translation). 3. When the Philistines saw that their hero was dead, they turned and ran. Challenging the Story of the Valley of Elah — Part I. 3. David did not need a sword to kill the enemy. There is one more piece of evidence that further backs this interpretation. This description helps us to understand why Saul and the rest of the Israelite army responded in fear (1 Sam. 12 Answers. The point is that the biblical author carefully chose each word to describe Goliath’s armor and weapons, in order to demonstrate the ineffectiveness of each later in the story. Sometimes Hebrew uses the word “feet” as a euphemism to refer to the male genitals, but once again, that is not the word here. Of course, that's the last thing David plans to do. This proves Lord only killed Goliath because when David put a stone in his sling and swung the sling, Lord was holding the head of Goliath and that’s why he fell to the ground face down. I wasn’t aware that this weapon existed but this was a fun experiment that made me look at the story of David and Goliath in a new light. Fokkelman notes that the same Hebrew word is used in v. 50 and 51 to describe David’s killing of Goliath. However, modern soldiers regularly carry 200+ pounds on their backs through the toughest terrain. With what did David kill Goliath? Did David Kill Goliath With a Staff Sling? it seems to me, a stone from a sling would much more likely embed in a brass helmet without dealing a lethal blow (as you point out the lethal blow was David cutting off his head) than a direct impact with the forehead. The NIV translators don't know that David slew Goliath. B’ He dispatched him and cut off his head ''And behold, David poppeth the holy cap in the evil posterior of the giant Goliath. People tell me, "The NIV is more accurate". Am I missing something here? David began asking around to see if there was a reward for killing Goliath (there was), and so someone went to wherever Saul had disappeared to and told him that someone was volunteering! Here the author states that David enters Saul’s service as an armor-bearer (v. 21). NKJV So David prevailed over the Philistine with a sling and a stone, and struck the Philistine and KILLED HIM. 9 years ago. Even individuals with only a nodding acquaintance of the Bible are aware of how Goliath died: “David killed the giant with a sling and a stone, of course.” Indeed, that is what 1 Samuel 17:48-50 indicates: David hurried and ran toward the army to meet the Philistine. But the main question is: did David really kill Goliath at Elah or was it just ancient propaganda? How did Saul try to ensure that David was killed? Revelation 22:18-19. Most of them, not only cover the forehead, but the nose as well. As Goliath approached wearing his heavy armor, David recognized a vulnerable place in the big man’s attire. . If u can read 1 Samuel 5: 1-5, you will see that the statue of dragon fell face down before the ark of the covenant. Third, and here is where I expect to lose you…the pictures show Goliath being hit in the forehead instead of where David’s stone probably hit him. Absalom's Hair, or, Give Me a Head With Hair! Lv 5. The stone hit the giant between the eyes and he fell on the ground. In his monumental biography of David, accomplished biblical scholar Baruch Halpern describes him as a “mere youth” and “delicate little amateur.”[1] Alexander Rofé claims that David was a “lowly youth who makes an ideal fairy-tale hero.”[2] So, how did this little boy kill Goliath? If his helmet fit poorly, or if David aimed for his eyes, being so much shorter, the stone would have angled up under the helmet to embed itself in the forehead under the edge. How did David kill Goliath? Thanks for all your comments. Thanks for your input Bryan. Chapter 1 tells of their creation & then in Chapter 2, it goes into more detail about how they were created. How did David kill Goliath again? I hope this is helpful, for at least understanding my reading of the text. Good point on the knee, being an ex-street fighter when I was younger the best way to take out a huge man is to break his knee sideways, its very effective from ex logger w lotsa past experience fighting… So makes sense (THANK God I’m a pastor now & no more physical fighting!!! In response to how heavy the armor weighed, remember that Goliath weighed much more. A common “difficulty” or contradiction cited in the Bible is the fact that the text tells us David “killed” Goliath twice. In this case we learn that Saul’s disobedience was even greater than we realized. Soldiers had to have maneuverability and speed when fighting, and they could not afford to let anything slow them down. Excellent article, Randy. And when the Philistines saw that their champion was dead, they fled.” 5-7). Jews and Greeks in the First Century A.D. Bible, Archaeology, Travel with Luke Chandler, Clothing in Samuel: You Are What You Wear. Goliath wore a helmet of bronze, a coat of mail weighing 126 pounds (57.15 kg. Some good observations Paul. I’ll talk more about this in a moment. Another thing is that the weight isn’t even that much. Elhanan later killed Goliath’s brother. The thought/prospect of David hitting Goliath in the “knee” vs. the “head” is not merely provocative for the purpose of further study/discussion, it also adds an irony to the story that I had never considered before: that David (quite possibly) brought down all 9′ 9″ of the hulking Goliath, not with a divinely guided stone to the head, but with one to the knee cap — which may have been level with David’s sight line. The only problem I have with it is your description of his armor weighing him down. He promised him his daughter's Michals hand in marriage if he killed 200 Philistines with his men. His faith also led him to numerous victories as he killed several enemies of Israel in battles. I would argue that these paintings get at least 3 things wrong. The writer wants to make the important point that “David prevailed over the Philistine with a sling and a stone” (v.50). However, I would encourage you to be less pessimistic regarding understanding the Bible when you state, “So, do we (normal Christians) really understand what the Bible means? Goliath was killed twice. By reading the story as the biblical author intended, we can see that David is not a little shepherd boy who fells an enemy warrior with a child’s toy. Further, even though David is already a warrior, there are doubtless more accomplished soldiers in the Israelite army. What happens when we have unquestionable passages? Praise the Lord for how He changes us! This is rare in biblical narrative. Third, David’s rejection of Saul’s armor is evidence that his trust lies elsewhere. But how can a “greave” be a “forehead”? God bless. Goliath was 9 ft tall. To describe David as an amateur or fairy tale hero in this story is not only poor scholarship; it borders on the obtuse.[4]. Top Posters. 3. God wanted to have the Philistines killed. Scripture gives us stronger clues regarding David’s age when he fought Goliath. As another commenter said, if the helmet didn’t fit exactly right, or because of the angle, it could have hit Goliath in the temple- that’s also a pretty good place to hit someone if you want to knock them down. While some scholars do not think that hitting Goliath in the knee would incapacitate him, I must disagree for two reasons. The protective coat worn by Goliath in his battle with David … If you find Wong’s article it’s worth a read, in terms of demonstrating how the later context shows the weakness of each piece mentioned in vv. How did David kill Goliath? How did David kill Goliath? If you accept Goliath’s height as 6′9′’ then he was probably about a foot taller than David. David did (1 Samuel 17:50) - "Thus David prevailed over the Philistine with a sling and a stone, and he struck the Philistine and killed him; but there was no sword in David’s hand." They were quick on the battlefield and quick to get up when they fell down. David’s decision to use a sling and wear no armor was a genius tactical decision. I’m not sure how a knee blow can incapacitate a vicious warrior like Goliath. 21:5-9). The young David became a champion in the fight because of his great trust in God’s power. “Therefore David ran, and stood upon the Philistine, and took his sword, and drew it out of the sheath thereof, and slew him, and cut off his head therewith. Greaves must leave a space for the knee to bend in order for the wearer to walk. My interest in doing this is not simply to put forward some wild theory by a few “eccentric” scholars, but because I think this version of how David killed Goliath more accurately reflects the original text, and has a very significant theological point to make. Funny how you can subconsciously remember details you picked up from drawings/paintings that aren’t actually in the text! Another Elhanan, the son of Jair, slew Lachmi, who was a brother of a Goliath (1 Chronicles). Hi Jeff thanks for your comment. Hi Lindsay, My real interest here is not simply to be controversial or to pose as an art critic, for which I am ill qualified, but to use these artistic renderings as a way of raising the important question of how David killed Goliath. Look at the parallels with the Dagon statue falling before the Ark and loosing its head. ( Log Out /  17:45-47). First, consider the weight of Goliath’s armor. In this article Deem argues that the Hebrew word for “greaves” in 1 Samuel 17:6 is the same as the word for “forehead” in 1 Samuel 17:49. I looked up the Hebrew word “metsakh” and its uses in the Bible and found the following ten references: And how did he do it with such a simple weapon? Add to that the fact that Goliath was wearing 120 lbs of armor. - John 15:5b Choose one of your men. David finished the job more quickly by using Goliath’s sword afterward. I would agree with you that looking at the original Hebrew or Greek can be extremely helpful and if we don’t know the languages ourselves, it is wise to check out commentaries by experts who do know the languages. Here we go again. I think its probably seriously broken at that point. One final observation. We can do this over and over with questionable passages, hoping to arrive at a reasonable answer. In fact David cutting off Goliath’s head appears almost an afterthought. Second Samuel 21:15–17 … The Bible features the story of David, a shepherd boy, who defeated the powerful Philistine warrior named Goliath. She said it hurts worse than childbirth. NIV Says "David Didn't Kill Goliath"! I came to the same conclusion for a paper I did for Herb Wolf at Wheaton Grad School in 1985. David’s rejection of Saul’s armor is significant for a number of reasons. However, the Hebrew word is the word for “forehead” but it is written like the word for greaves and thus is a wordplay perhaps suggesting Goliath got hit in the knee. TOPICS: General Discusssion; History; Theology KEYWORDS: bible; david; davidandgoliath; goliath. This observation has caused scholar J. P. Fokkelman to write, “We have all been brought up on the idea that Goliath was hit in the forehead. Matthew 23:15, “I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. David rushed and killed Goliath with the sword. We have to delve into the Hebrew to understand the shades of meaning. Far from a pebble fired from a child’s toy, a sling stone was an especially lethal weapon. I appreciate it! “Then Dawiḏ ran and stood over the Philistine, and took his sword and drew it out of its sheath and killed him, and cut off his head with it. Second, recalling our pictures above, why is Goliath frequently shown falling backwards in artistic renditions of this story? Notice that he did not claim that David was too small, although even the tallest people today would be dwarfed by Goliath. David did not kill Goliath in a city, but rather in a field known as the Valley of Elah. 1Sa 17:50 And so, without a sword, David defeated and killed Goliath with a sling and a stone! Although Goliath’s height is impressive, as is the weight of his armor and spear tip, most people read over these verses and don’t think much more about them. He took hold of the Philistine’s sword and drew it from the sheath. We were both completely ignorant of most of those details you pointed out. A friend of mine shared a video of a guy being super accurate with a sling which shows how accurate people can be with such a weapon. Navigation: use the links below to view more comments. With a sling only. If you google “greek helmets” as I have, you will be even more impressed with the protection offered to the wearer of one of these! I can imagine how much damage a carefully aimed sling stone traveling at 100mph would inflict to a knee (never mind one that is guided by the Lord!). His chances of being able to get off the ground would be impossible in my estimation. A soldier from the 16th century, when armor was at its peak and heaviest, could fall off a horse fully armored and spring to his feet in the next step ready to fight. Unarmoured and equipped only with a sling, 5 smooth rocks, and his staff; David defeats the champion Goliath with a well-aimed shot to the head. However, the list of Goliath’s armor and weaponry plays a very significant part in the story that follows. David’s stone hit Goliath in the forehead which knocked him unconscious. What was perceived to be Goliath’s greatest strengths turned out to be his greatest weaknesses. In ( 1 Samuel 17:42 ) says David was a young boy and of short height, so it was very difficult for him to kill. #22 Joseph shall add, Jun 29, 2017. I will attempt to answer your question by approaching it in several ways. Later, in the Roman Republic, men would be called away from their farms to serve as soldiers, then return home to their lives as farmers after their military obligations concluded. Further, the context of 2 Samuel 21:19 makes it clear that it is describing an entirely separate event from David’s slaying of Goliath in 1 Samuel 17:50. We all know the story of David and Goliath very well. I do find it very believable that Goliath would have been totally incapacitated by a 60 to 100 mph stone embedded in his knee, plus well over 100 lb of body armor. We had an interesting discussion! First, the LXX translators used two different terms for greaves and forehead. He is described as 'a champion out of the camp of the Philistines, whose height was six cubits and a span' (Samuel 17:4). Jacob Neuser, Baruch A. Levine, and Ernest S. Frerichs (Philadelphia, PA: Fortress Press, 1987), 117. How would David remove his sword with him still conscious? I find this “greaves” idea very compelling. The killing of Goliath occurred when he was beheaded. All he had was a shepherd's pouch and a wooden staff, and five chosen stones from a nearby brook (why did David specifically choose 5 smooth stones, though???) I think it’s safe to say David really did kill a Lion. The words used to describe David here are gibbor and ish, respectively. The story of David and Goliath begins in a somewhat unusual way. — Looking at All Things Biblically – Jason Bible Church Member. This was also a remarkable achievement as Lachmi also bore a spear like a weaver's beam. If there was a struggle it seems like the narrative would indicate so. You have led many astray, or at least planted the seeds of doubt in many weaker-minded Christians as to the Truth of Scripture, and at the end of days this is a sin for which God must and will hold you accountable. It is exactly at this vulnerable space that David deliberately aims, thereby causing the stone to ‘sink’ into the greave, that is between the greave and the knee, so that the Philistine—who at the moment is awkwardly making his way towards David—will stumble forward and fall, ‘on his face'” (p. 350). In the Qur'an: David killed Goliath (2:251), a giant soldier in … Your Facebook account right up to be i have with it as the stuff legend! 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